In the latest Ultimate Avengers (#5) the issue begins with the Red Skull holding a gun to a baby's head. The next page, he makes the mother kill the father with scissors to save her baby's life. But after the fact, he throws the baby out the building's window and has his thugs gang rape the mother all night. The 3rd page is an exterior shot showing the bloody splatter of the baby on the sidewalk. Really, Marvel?I understand the villains are VILLAINS, but I do not understand why they feel compelled to show these horrific acts. It's simply not something I want to see in my entertainment. I grow tired of the ultra-violence in today's comics. This is but one case in a string of examples running through both Marvel & DC.
Murder, Torture, Genocide, Infanticide and Rape are what superhero comics are about Today. No thanks.
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51 comments:
I agree. I think sometimes they push things too far. Growing up in the 80's, I remember Chris Claremont writing in things like sexual assualt in his X-Men books (like when Karma was assualted by pirates or when Rogue was mistreated by the Genoshans). It was subtle in the way it was written, and it didn't feel like "forced shockvalue" like what happened in the newest issue of Ult Avengers.
I think comics benefited from having the Comics Code Authority back in the day. People can argue that writers are more free and open to write books that are mature and edgy without it like we have today, but I think a really talented writer can work better wonders when they don't have as much to work with.
I think ultra violence does have a place in comic books today, but I think they put it in the wrong books. It really sends a mixed message when Marvel promotes a kid friendly Wolverine in their Marvel Superhero Squad, but then in the comics he's graphically hacking people into pieces.
I could see why Millar wrote Red Skull the way he did and why that scene was in the book, but he could have done it in a more subtle way.
But these are also a sign of the times.
Typical Millar.
I read that too and was disappointed. I liked my villians to have some sense of honor at least.
What was worst was the Red Skull killing the baby anyway and the implied gang rape afterwards. *sigh*
I read the issue last night, and felt the same way. I felt like I was watching an accident happen. I wanted to look away, but couldn't skip the parts to get to the rest of the story. Truly, this is something I've grown tired of, and repulsed by. I think that's why I've started leaning towards books like Power Girl. I would rather re-read my 80's issues of Blue Devil than poison myself toward the medium with this type thing. I'm dropping books like these. I miss my childhood a great deal. :(
Maybe a short homage to Pride & Glory with the baby threatening but I never accept rape anywhere.
That is pretty hardcore.
Ofcourse one excuse for this specific case could be ULTIMATE evil for ULTIMATE comics...but doubts remain.
God your a bunch of kiss asses to Jimmy boy here. If you guys dont like it, go read some of DC's convoluted boring ass crap Marvel got with the times and threw out that campy bullshit. This comics code is what was holding great writers like Millar back, Censorship is for the fucking commies. This is a perfect example of why people like you guys should stop buying movies, video games, comics, and music that say parental advisory on them because your the same as the moms saying that the matrix and marilyn manson were the reasons for columbine. That being said keep up the blog Mr. Smash cause I get a kick out of the ridiculous stuff you post man Predators are superior and star trek blows long live Star Wars.
villans are villans, guys. and I think it passed pretty subtle. they didnt even said "rape".
look, its not that *ALL* superhero comics are like this. those are the kind of stuff you can find allmost only in the ultimate line, espacially under miller and loeb (mind you, ultimates 3). I read alot super hero comics, and this kinda stuff is very rare. I can barley remember where else I've read such stuff inside of Marvel\DC.
ha, you know what my biggest problome with that issue was? how the hell did rogers worked all that hardware and tele-planes when he supposed to be that "im from the 50's dont scare me with youre technology" kinda guy.
Jim,
guys,
dont give up on superherose comics. mark miller is an a-hole. do you really think youll find the same in spiderman? new avengers? i relly love "the mighty avengers" under Dan Slott. I think its a claasic super heros comics and great fun - without ultra violence.
Could've been worse - they could've raped the baby all night.
Preacher was great but it was an adult-themed comic and completely different genre. So the comparison does is not relevant.
My point was the storytelling... showing the baby being thrown out, and showing the blood splatter. I don't want that in my mainstream superhero books. I blame the artist on this more than anything.
And its not just an isolated event, nor is its just Marvel... Over at DC, Roy Harper (Red Arrow) just had his toddler murdered... Elongated Man's wife was raped... Kyle Rayner's girlfriend was murdered and stuffed into his fridge... I think his mom's head was decapitated and put in his oven(right?)...its like today's writers only know how to write stories about horrible acts of violence. I'm not saying they should be banned, but there's also a way you go about it. And no, I'm not like those who blame MM for Columbine. Don't insult my intelligence.
And no, I will not be reading this. For those who like this shit - enjoy your fucking hearts out. I'm done, tho.
There's room to like both Star Trek & Star Wars. Predators are not superior.
End.
oops, accidently closed the comment section. back up!
How convenient that you just "happened" to close the comments after your comment "Predators are not superior" - clearly a nod to the ongoing war between Aliens & Predators.
I dont get it, jim. Does Superherose family are safe from mad man? cant they get raped\murderd\stuffed in a fridg?
If they werent, people would say that superheroes genre is unrealistic.
My main issue is with the baby and SHOWING it. have it stay in dialogue... "The Skull killed them all"... I don't need to SEE a baby thrown out the window and splattered across the sidewalk. Not in a mainstream comic with Captain America. Comics are entertainment and escapism. I don't need to witness the realistic atrocities of Life in my superhero books. Comics can have bad villains who are the scum of the earth... I don't want campy... but I also want some decency & class from my comic creators as storytellers. I really don't understand why I must defend or clarify this.
This comic was the last straw for me. I'm done with the Ultimate line. It was weak shit, trying to be 'edgy' and just being wrong. Garbage.
Preacher, was great, as was Watchmen. They had violence that fit the story, and added to the narrative, that carried weight. This was just pointless violence for the sake of violence.
I see an Avengers comic with Captain America on the cover, I don't expect rape and infanticide on the first page. Marvel's losing it's way. Hell, The Siege had Ares graphically ripped in half.
I don't say that this should be censored, just don't misrepresent what you're selling.
Thanks for posting this. I've linked to it on my facebook page.
As I said there, I have no issue with extreme content in alternative/underground/adult comics -- but superheroes are NOT an adult concept, no matter how much the babymen/fanboys want them to be. And as long as the superhero comics feature characters that are marketed to children (toys, games, cartoons, etc.), this sort of grim, ugly material has no business within their pages. This only appeals to a fringe element of insecure fans who, deep down inside, are ashamed to be seen reading comics -- and who, sadly, think that by adding rape, torture, mutilation, etc. to the mix, they have somehow made comics more "adult" and "sophisticated." The truth, however, is that they've only managed to make them ugly.
Again -- extreme content in service of a truly sophisticated adult story -- or twisted satire? I have no problem with that. I'm an avid reader of R. Crumb, S. Clay Wilson, Dan Clowes and many others who crossed the line of "good taste" early and often. My current graphic novel project (for Vertigo Crime -- still a work in progress) has plenty of blood spilled within its pages -- but it's a crime novel -- for adult readers. My issue is with taking mainstream superhero characters, created for an audience of kids, and dragging them into "adulthood" by inserting this sort of cynical, nasty, ugly content into the stories.
Those who like this sort of thing will insist that the public likes it -- but I say take a hard look at the real sales numbers on today's superhero comics. The "hit" titles are selling numbers low enough to have gotten them cancelled in the '60s or '70s. I say when the only audience left is the hardcore fringe, there's something not working here. The vast majority of American parents would not want their children reading such material -- and it's only because the (mainstream) comic book business has (largely) abandoned the youth audience, that there hasn't been a huge fuss over this sort of thing. Parents aren't up in arms, because none of them have seen this stuff -- because their kids aren't buying it. Don't get me wrong -- I'm no follower of Dr. Wertham, but there's something to be said for content being appropriate to the books.
There's only one response to this that will mean anything. Don't buy the book and let Marvel know why. This garbage will be out there so long as it keeps selling!
Good grief.
If Marvel feels the need for this, then they should make "Ultimate Avengers" a MAX title. This does not belong in a book geared for mainstream non-diehard fans looking to check out comics (the Ultimate line). I 2nd (3rd, 5th?) opinion that there is a way you portray the viloence. The way Pacheco did is unacceptable within this title.
Jim, today there is little regard towards life and it's very humourless! I quit buying comics for geeky reasons (DC's destruction of multiple earths) but if this is popular among fans... they need their heads examined!
"I dont get it, jim. Does Superherose family are safe from mad man? cant they get raped\murderd\stuffed in a fridg?
If they werent, people would say that superheroes genre is unrealistic."
I have never understood this argument. Criminals RARELY go after family members of cops or etc. because of the absolute storm of hellfire that would come down upon them in contrast.
But even forgiving that, what exactly make this "more realistic?" Yes, people die and horrible tragedy occurs, but does it happen SO frequently to people who live relatively ordinary lives? Even superheroes, who engage in regular crimefighting against colorfully-costumed villains, aren't supposed to be whining cauldrons of angst.
But let's forget even abouit that and ask the question if this is meant to be more "adult" and "mature." What's funny is when I was 12 I was under the impression that blood, rape, murder, death, and etc. were all "mature" and "adult," when in fact they're actually quite juvenile. "Adult" and "Mature" deals with subject matters and themes on a level that most children don't recognize until they're older.
And yet again, let's forget that and think of this story itself: what does this scene contribute? How does it have any genuine impact on the characters, particularly the woman herself who got raped? Or rather was it simply swept under the rug so that we could truly know who the bad guys are, since simply being a Nazi who calls themself "The Red Skull" wasn't an indication of that.
Jim:
I think it went very subtle not really showing the baby been splatterd on the sidewalk, but only showing him been thrown out and later the splatter (no corps) from far away. shocking, yet subtle.
lewis lovhaug:
there are lots of ways making a story realistic without killing anyone or even using human characters. but specificlly on the subject of violence in the hearose lifes, you cant leave them sterile. they need to be vulnerable just like any other real human. and since they dont mess with normal criminals but with super villans, the results should be different from real life.
See, I disagree - the blood splatter was not subtle in my opinion. Showing the baby being thrown out was over the line, for me, but could be debated that it was ON the line. The splatter was over the top and unnecessary. For me, the words of Fury's story was enough... you didn't need to SEE either.
I agree with Jim (which is a rarity -->but still love the guy), but there was nothing subtle about the baby being thrown out the window and the blood splattered on the street.
If this sequence took place in Marvel's MAX line of books, I don't think we'd be having this discussion (or at least to this extent). But this wasn't a MAX title.
This is why I stopped reading Ultimates back when Hawkeye's family was brutality murdered. I know villains have to be intimidating and tough, but this is way too grim.
Dudes and dudets:
SUPERHEROSE COMICS ARE NOT FOR CHIELDREN! Let them bastards read marvel adventures digests.
That's the most asinine thing I've heard in awhile.
I grew up on comics. I started as a kid. Comics - superhero comics by the Big Two - are supposed to be for all ages.
AND, I am an ADULT and I was offended by that shitty comic. How about you go read torture porn shit instead? How's that?
"SUPERHEROSE COMICS ARE NOT FOR CHIELDREN! "
Unbelievable.
I am so sick of the 'realistic' bent in comics today.
To say that The Merry Marchers have marched across a line they can never return from is an understatement.
When I was a child, picking up my very first comic book in that barber shop, I was hooked.
Well, this fish has broken that hook and is out of the Marvel buying business.
If it's about pleasing the masses, then that's pathetic.
We are better than Marvel (or DC) gives us credit for being.
I abhor any form of censorship.
It's weak, lazy storytelling and Marvel is the alien hatchery spawning drivel like this.
If you call this sort of publication 'kick ass' or 'cool' or, God help us all, 'good', then there is no turning you away from it.
I speak only for myself. No more Marvel.
Lee and Kirby's House of Ideas has been vandalized and razed to the ground.
They became realistic. Forgetting this is supposed to be a fantasy was an unforgivable mistake.
Terry Beatty knows what he's talking about! He's got it right. It's why I don't buy comics anymore and download scans of them. I'd wipe my ass with this crap that Millar continues to write.
All comics were readable for all ages when I was growing up. They should still be that way! I knew it was over when they added a ratings system to them...
I was more displeased with the fact how cheap this scene was than the violence. The "you think it was evil? watch this!" method of showing how truly evil Red Skull is, was lame. After throwing the baby through the window I was expecting him to throw through it a box full of puppies.
There is place for ultra violence in comics if it's used for something more than cheap storytelling and it's in the right books.
Look at the Siege #2. We had there even more graphical death. Alone it would be probably as cheap as the one from Ultimate Avengers #5, but the images showing other characters reactions surrounding the scene made it closer to the reader in a way that he wasn't the only one who was shocked of what happened. In UA5 we have Red Skull with thugs who commit even more horrifying things and you know what, those thugs are as bad as Skull, so he isn't that evil. If Millar cut the "baby-through-the-window" and inserted there panels in which Red Skull intends to throw the baby, but one of his goons disagrees with that and gets killed for it. After it there could be said in narration box that the baby was killed. That way Skull would be more terrifying and we wouldn't have to watch senseless violence.
Last thing. As to the bloody splatter of the baby, at first reading I missed and when I finally saw it I thought "Really Mark, you're want to copy Loeb's Ultimatum?"
I support the 'Comics are not for chieldren', and adds that in comics for adults theres also violence. you may argue about the quality of the use of violence, but what you gonna tell marvel about the sales numbers? God, 'ultimatom' was the worst and it sold like shit crazy. you dont expect them to listem to argues about quality when people BUY the crap Loeb\Miller write!
But current comics AREN'T selling well. Today's top numbers are downright lousy compared to sales figures from the decades when (mainstream) comics were aimed at an all ages audience and sold in venues other than comic shops. The industry has, oddly, decided to pretend that these lower numbers are good -- and continues publishing titles that sell so poorly I can't see how they make any profit at all.
Weren't the "Ultimate" titles started as books that would be good jumping on points for NEW readers? And wouldn't most new readers be younger? Now go find me some modern day parents who would be OK with their kids reading a comic that gets things started with a good ol' round of infanticide. Good luck.
Look -- this sequence is repulsive, no matter how you look at it. And again, out of place in a book featuring characters that are marketed and merchandised to children. You can't have it both ways. If you want all your superhero comics to be "adult" like this one (and really, it's not adult -- but pathetically juvenile -- but for the sake of this argument, I'll grit my teeth and call it "adult") -- then pull Capt. America and the rest of the Avengers from the action figure lines, the games, the kids' clothing, the TV cartoons -- oh wait! There's too much money to be made off of that stuff -- because the general public actually BUYS it! So how about producing some comic books about these characters that would appeal to that same (large!) general public, and not the ever-dwindling "fan base" that only wants to see these iconic characters defiled?
Not one more Marvel comic. Not ever. Reality is sick enough without the Mopes at Marvel ape-ing it!
I owe Millar a nut punch!
Hope he still has 'em when it's my turn!
I'm all for adult themes in comics. And I am avidly against censorship of any kind, so quite honestly, it doesn't bother me in the least bit. However, I do understand where you are coming from, Jim. In my opinion, this makes the book an adult's read, and not for minors, sure. But maybe that is the audience they are trying to attract here? Maybe they realize that kids today are too busy on the Xbox and so they are trying to appeal to the adult kids who still read comics. The only thing I don't like, is when stuff like this is put in books for shock value only. Its kinda like the Spawn animated series. I feel the adult themes and fowl language were just put in there as a gimmick, as opposed to genuine story telling elements. There is a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it. Showing tits & ass and gore and using loads of adult language can be done, but if the creators are doing it simply for shock value then it becomes trite and shallow.
ENNIS did the same "gun on baby's head" in PUNISHER MAX (vs BARRACUDA) but he did it RIGHT.
This argument really bothers me...
" this is gritty " and " real" and "adult themed",.....ect...
Let's get this clear. If you can't make a MOVIE, TV show, Music Video,..or in this case a COMIC with out having to RELY ( not have it in just the contenet) on shock value, or sex to sell it,..then you suck as a writer/director. Sex and violence are easy. They appeal to the lowest common denominator, and our base instincts. That is not creative, it is not 'ambitious',..it's just an easy marketing tool. So PLEASE don't defend the stuff by saying it "appeals to a more mature reader". No,..it appeals to the SIMPLEST of readers. I love violence, and I love sex. But only when it is put into context, and is relevant to the story. Those should be CONTRIBUTING factors, not the DEFINING ones. And Millar ( and a shit load of people making films and books out there, i don't want to just single him out ) seem to only have this one trick. Everyone is BAD ASS!!!!!, every female is ooozing sex. His stories reads like the mind of the stereotypical, socially ostracized, 14 year old, virgin, fan boy.
No substance. No "lesson learned". nothing constructive, or thought even evoking. Just everyone is BAD ASS!!!!! FUCK YEA THAT WAS AWESOME!!!! he's pretty much the Michael Bay of comics.
- this is nothing but Violence for the sake of Violence. AND,....AND if someone tries to defend it with the argument " well that's what art is, it's supposed to evoke an emotion from the reader/viewer",..then I will counter with,....OK,..come out to the parking lot. I'm doing a "performance piece " as to were i take a sledgehammer to you car repeatedly. Then, when I'm done, and your bitching an moaning at me, i punch you in the face several times. i like to call it "this is art after all " it's an installation/performance piece that requires viewer participation.
....after all, it will evoke an emotional response from you.......ergo, it's art.
"Ennis did it" is not a good argument.
Hey, buds. If someone in your circle of friends jumped off a bridge......
Weak ass argument. No argument, really. Just excuses and apologies.
There are great back issues out there.
Face backward,True Believer!!
I’m 32 years old; I have loved comics for most of my life. I have a 12 year old daughter who is really starting to get into comics. I have channels blocked out on her TV so she can’t see ultra violence I.E. Rape, baby killing, over kill. The reason I say that first is, I never thought I would have to censor comics from my own child. When I was young, you knew who the bad guy was, with out baby tossing. The villains are the evil looking ones. Doctor Doom was bad because he looked bad and wanted to take over the world, not because he tossed a baby out the window and had his men rape a woman. But you got the idea that he was capable of doing that because he was the bad guy, you didn’t need to see it happen. And I still think that even now, people are just so desensitized to violence, murder and crime in general that they just shrug off the most harsh crimes that a person can commit. And trying to glaze over that fact by saying “Comics are for adults” is bullshit. I am an adult and I still don’t want to see this kind of thing. And for the record I don’t enjoy the comic code, I think it held back a lot of good books. But I do think the writers and artists have a responsibility to censor themselves, to a point. Comics are for everyone, and in a lot of cases comic books are the starting point for kids to learn how to enjoy reading, and really want to read. So if the books are filled with things we would normally keep our kids from seeing, then perhaps they would never get that reading bug and never understand that reading can be just as fun as watching TV except you get to use your imagination to create the worlds you read about. That’s all I have to say about it. Peace be with you all.
.That was awesome.
if theres anyone here that gonna give up on comics written by warren ellis, dan slott, bendis, hickman, jeff parker and, ofcourse, j michel strazinsky just becouse mark miller and jef loeb - well, thats youre decision.
comics are for everyone, but the ultimate line is apprently for adults, and not for kids (execpt for ult spider-man). you just gonna have to face the fact that not all superhero comics are for everyone.
Then The Ultimates should be moved under the MAX line of books, which is geared towards "Adults" and are Rated-R/NC-17. The Ultimate line was created for all ages.
I would like to chime in and add that Marvel makes small toys for ages 3+ called "Super Hero Squad" in conjunction with the cartoon of the same name. Many of the figures in this toy line are the Ultimate versions, visually speaking. And there is also the "Ultimate Avengers" animated movie that aires on the Cartoon Network during the day. So to say that the Ultimate line is geared towards adults is inaccurate. Marvel is selling these Ultimate characters to children through adverstising, cartoons and product.
My son, who is 6, loves the Super Hero Squad cartoon and has shown interest in picking up the comics. He has the Captain America and Gaint Man figures, who are in their Ultimate costumes. If I was to go into a comic book store in search of a book with those characters, I would find them in the Ultimate books. Obviously I will not be buying the Ultimate Line for him, but instead find a younger audience book. I read comics occassionly myself, so I have some awareness of the different lines and imprints. But most parents do not. They only see the characters in the cartoon, in their child's hand and then seek out the comic with the same characters in the same costume. The only place you will find Captain America & Giant Man like the toys my son has, is in the Ultimates & Ulimate Avengers. If Marve wants a hardcore line where Captain America is a dick and the Red Skull kills babies, fine... keep it in a "Mature Themed" imprint like MAX and do not market those costumes to children and put them in a kids' cartoon.
I hope Marvel takes note and does a better job with clearly defining its lines, instead of marketing it all together.
And just to clarify: I am against censorship and do not blame Rock Stars for massacres.
I think the ultimate answer here comes from the king himself, Jack Kirby.
From the Forever People #8:
Darkseid: "Greatness does NOT come from killing the young!"
Ironic in this context, as Kirby (and Simon) also created Red Skull.
If nothing else, this type of portrayal bastardizes the intent of the creators themselves. you want a baby killing rapist character, create your own damn villain. Respect the legends or leave them the hell alone.
CAN I GET A HALLALUJA!!!!!
and ya know,..I know nazi's are pieces of s#$@. but, they're not crazed, nihilist, psychopaths...... know your Villain. Just bc someone is 'evil" or "bad", doesn't mean they are all insane, perverse lunatics.
seriously, learn how to understand and write a character.
Wow! Lots of people out of lurking today, huh?! So...when're you going full time? xoxo
I find it ironic considering the state of comics back in the 70's and even 80's and 90's. Comic censors where really prickly about stuff. Yet judging from scenes like this and the exploits of DC's Black Mask (ironically), violence in comics has now gone overboard. I does help the audience hate the villians all the more but whatever happened to horrible acts being subtlely alludded too and letting our twisted imaginations play with it. Also, don't kids still read these comics?
You crack me up, Robert. Kids don't read comics and haven't been for many, many years. Go to a convention and look around. It's all babymen in their 30-40s who keep this industry going and so the writing and general themes of the current comics is written towards them. It's pretty sad.
I've tried many times to get kids to read a comic, but little is really made for them especially since Marvel and DC can't sell a kids line of comics and keep them going.
An example: Marvel Adventures Iron Man. A book that lasted 13 issues and Marvel couldn't sell it because it was considered 'All Ages'. Even with the hot movie playing at the time the series was running, they couldn't sell it. How pathetic is that??
Kids have better things to do than read comics. The only Spider-Man they know is Tobey Maguire. I've given comics away to kids and the books they get from me are the only ones they'll ever have since it doesn't seem to inspire them to enjoy it and then go out on their own accord and go look for more. This is also after I have to look through every book and make sure it's safe before you give them out. You never know what could be lurking inside of a comic nowadays. I used to give comics out at Halloween, but I stopped as I didn't have time to look through every damn book.
I started really collecting comics in 1982 with Amazing Spider-Man 231. It had a great last page that MADE me want to seek out the next one to see what the hell happened next! That doesn't happen with today's kids.
I own and operate a comic store and have found more and more kids are coming in. The all-ages comic line, the Super Hero Squad cartoon, toylines and movies are making an impact. My kids, ages 8-13, are all into comics as are their friends. And no, Dad's job was not the influence. Yes, for a decade or longer, kids were not interested in comic books. Sadly, we lost a generation or two. But there's a new generation hungry for comics. As for conventions, I cannot recall ever seeing a large kid presence at them.
Yer right, everything u don't like should be banned, because if u don't like it, then nobody else should. how dare they write about things that actually happen? maybe if they didn't write about them we'd forget they occur and they would just cease to exist, yeah, that would be great. if you excuse me now i'm gonna lock myself in my beatiful bubble where real life can not get to me
I don't know how many times I need to reiterate...
I am NOT saying anything should be BANNED. Banning is wrong.
I'm saying I do not like and I am not going to buy it.
That is all.
That.
Is.
All.
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